Yes, of course. A few anecdotes don’t change the fact that taking the lane is the safest way to ride. When drivers aren’t paying attention, the best place to be is exactly where they are most likely to see you.
Bike lanes and other infrastructure *might* be good for the community as a whole, but as an individual, I will continue to make choices for myself that keep me safe. And that means taking the lane.
Point taken. The issue I have is the idea that a massive VC education campaign will do away with a human’s innate fear, and create a legion of empowered riders. Everyone in this country has been told from age 1 to stay out of the street and look out for cars. This was reinforced with “Blood on the Highway” and other films shown during driver’s education. Combine this with the 42,000 deaths a year in automobiles (most everyone knows someone who was either badly injured or killed in a vehicle), all of which were people educated on proper driving techniques, makes it unrealistic to shout down people advocating a separation of transportation modes. Effective Cycling was released 33 years ago and the creed that some here have stated of “Vehicular Cycling techniques have not been tried and found difficult. They have been presumed difficult and not tried.”, while clever, has failed to bring any substantial number of people out of cars and on to bicycles. Infrastructure on the other hand has…and if Forester was right, a city like Portland, given it’s incredibly high ridership, would note hundreds of fatalities. What happened instead? Not only lowering of accident rates, BUT a $100+ Million Bicycle industry, a major bike-centric tourism industry (this was a byproduct and not planned…few were planning weeklong vacations in overcast Portland in 1990), a large shift in modal share from cars to bicycles by average citizens, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. I don’t take it lightly that our bike czar lead the charge to shoot down any and all efforts to bring bicycle infrastructure to my city when opportunities existed, simply because of his philosophy. Any of the above cited could have occurred here…they were simply dismissed due to dogma.
Major Taylor ·
·
Yeah, take the lane with your 6 year old in tow on there own bike cuz that’s real safer than a dedicated lane right Steve?
Major Taylor ·
·
Still no answer from Steve or Stuart?
Perhaps that’s because they know “taking the lane”
with children of even the elderly is assinine.
Therefore vehicular cyling simply doesn’t work.
I don’t have kids myself and haven’t done a lot reading/thinking into how they fit into the equation. According to the expert, children can be reasonably expected to ride vehicularly in a group around the age of seven.
Generally speaking, my opinion is that the age/skill/experience/etc required to ride safely is not really different whether you are in a shared travel lane or in a dedicated bike lane. Either way, you are still in the street and will be required to interact with other vehicles.
Major Taylor ·
·
Sharing a bike lane=most people plodding along at about 5-10 mph being aware that kids will be sharing the bike lane.
Sharing the street=little junior/princess being forced to deal with cagers who are going to be traveling anywhere from 30-50 mph and most will
see them as a nuisance or even worse freal out and drive even more erractically.
Ever seen any dash cam footage from cop cars where the officer gets plowed by some driver whilehanding out a citation on the roadside?
The cop cars light are on and flashing like crazy,
how did the driver of the other vehicle even miss that? either they were careless or freaked out at the sight of the cop and forgot how to deal with the situation. Most people can’t be trusted to do the right thingin these harrowing situations. Most, if not all parents I know would never place their kids in this situation if bike lanes are also present. Who would do something so stupid?
Oh that’s right the VC crew. Real good luck with that, I hope the ambulance’s carry a shovel for these types of inevitable scenarios.
I’m afraid my previous comment about “interact[ing] with other vehicles” was unclear. I wasn’t talking about other bikes (though I worry some about that too). I mean cars. Yes, believe it or not, when you ride in a bike lane, you will still come into conflict with cars. Park(ed|ing) cars, turning cars, swerving cars, inattentive drivers, crossing intersections, etc.
Just to be clear, I don’t love “taking the lane”. I do it because it allows me to get where I need to go in a safe and efficient manner. If you prefer riding in bike lanes because you find it more comfortable or enjoyable – Fine. If you advocate bike-friendly infrastructure because you think it will make your community a better place for everyone – Fantastic. I don’t support bike lanes but I’m not really opposed to them either – as long as they are well designed. What I am opposed to is people who propagate the myth that cycling is dangerous.
Vehicular cycling and riding in bike lanes are both very safe activities. Yes, there are dangers in each situation, just like there are dangers in everything you do in life. If you want to minimize your risk, you need to spend just a little bit of time learning what the dangers are and how to avoid them. Jason, at least, seems to understand that. Denying that those dangers exist is not good for anyone. Neither is exaggerating the risks of one option in order promote your preferred choice.
Building special facilities does not negate the need for safety education and awareness – that is the point I am trying to get across.
Unless you are able to build a comprehensive system of 100% segregated, elevated bikeways or if you completely ban all motorized vehicles from public roads. Both of those would be pretty awesome, IMO. 🙂
I taught my youngest daughter to ride vehicularly. She had no trouble at all. My mom had more trouble with the concept, but we only went out for one ride.
I think Mannytmoto’s comment is saying a massive wave of VC is not gonna happen regardless of any merits it may have. I would agree with that sentiment. VC has not proven to be a good recruiting tool to lure people to bicycles. We might differ on the “why,” but that’s the way things are.
Bike Friendly Oak Cliff 
Yes.
How about now?:
Kinda makes you want to stay off the Interstate in your SUV and ride a bike instead, eh?
haha…that or start investing in a hot air balloon.
Yes, of course. A few anecdotes don’t change the fact that taking the lane is the safest way to ride. When drivers aren’t paying attention, the best place to be is exactly where they are most likely to see you.
Bike lanes and other infrastructure *might* be good for the community as a whole, but as an individual, I will continue to make choices for myself that keep me safe. And that means taking the lane.
Point taken. The issue I have is the idea that a massive VC education campaign will do away with a human’s innate fear, and create a legion of empowered riders. Everyone in this country has been told from age 1 to stay out of the street and look out for cars. This was reinforced with “Blood on the Highway” and other films shown during driver’s education. Combine this with the 42,000 deaths a year in automobiles (most everyone knows someone who was either badly injured or killed in a vehicle), all of which were people educated on proper driving techniques, makes it unrealistic to shout down people advocating a separation of transportation modes. Effective Cycling was released 33 years ago and the creed that some here have stated of “Vehicular Cycling techniques have not been tried and found difficult. They have been presumed difficult and not tried.”, while clever, has failed to bring any substantial number of people out of cars and on to bicycles. Infrastructure on the other hand has…and if Forester was right, a city like Portland, given it’s incredibly high ridership, would note hundreds of fatalities. What happened instead? Not only lowering of accident rates, BUT a $100+ Million Bicycle industry, a major bike-centric tourism industry (this was a byproduct and not planned…few were planning weeklong vacations in overcast Portland in 1990), a large shift in modal share from cars to bicycles by average citizens, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. I don’t take it lightly that our bike czar lead the charge to shoot down any and all efforts to bring bicycle infrastructure to my city when opportunities existed, simply because of his philosophy. Any of the above cited could have occurred here…they were simply dismissed due to dogma.
Yeah, take the lane with your 6 year old in tow on there own bike cuz that’s real safer than a dedicated lane right Steve?
Still no answer from Steve or Stuart?
Perhaps that’s because they know “taking the lane”
with children of even the elderly is assinine.
Therefore vehicular cyling simply doesn’t work.
Still waiting,
The Major
I don’t have kids myself and haven’t done a lot reading/thinking into how they fit into the equation. According to the expert, children can be reasonably expected to ride vehicularly in a group around the age of seven.
Generally speaking, my opinion is that the age/skill/experience/etc required to ride safely is not really different whether you are in a shared travel lane or in a dedicated bike lane. Either way, you are still in the street and will be required to interact with other vehicles.
Sharing a bike lane=most people plodding along at about 5-10 mph being aware that kids will be sharing the bike lane.
Sharing the street=little junior/princess being forced to deal with cagers who are going to be traveling anywhere from 30-50 mph and most will
see them as a nuisance or even worse freal out and drive even more erractically.
Ever seen any dash cam footage from cop cars where the officer gets plowed by some driver whilehanding out a citation on the roadside?
The cop cars light are on and flashing like crazy,
how did the driver of the other vehicle even miss that? either they were careless or freaked out at the sight of the cop and forgot how to deal with the situation. Most people can’t be trusted to do the right thingin these harrowing situations. Most, if not all parents I know would never place their kids in this situation if bike lanes are also present. Who would do something so stupid?
Oh that’s right the VC crew. Real good luck with that, I hope the ambulance’s carry a shovel for these types of inevitable scenarios.
I’m afraid my previous comment about “interact[ing] with other vehicles” was unclear. I wasn’t talking about other bikes (though I worry some about that too). I mean cars. Yes, believe it or not, when you ride in a bike lane, you will still come into conflict with cars. Park(ed|ing) cars, turning cars, swerving cars, inattentive drivers, crossing intersections, etc.
Just to be clear, I don’t love “taking the lane”. I do it because it allows me to get where I need to go in a safe and efficient manner. If you prefer riding in bike lanes because you find it more comfortable or enjoyable – Fine. If you advocate bike-friendly infrastructure because you think it will make your community a better place for everyone – Fantastic. I don’t support bike lanes but I’m not really opposed to them either – as long as they are well designed. What I am opposed to is people who propagate the myth that cycling is dangerous.
Vehicular cycling and riding in bike lanes are both very safe activities. Yes, there are dangers in each situation, just like there are dangers in everything you do in life. If you want to minimize your risk, you need to spend just a little bit of time learning what the dangers are and how to avoid them. Jason, at least, seems to understand that. Denying that those dangers exist is not good for anyone. Neither is exaggerating the risks of one option in order promote your preferred choice.
Building special facilities does not negate the need for safety education and awareness – that is the point I am trying to get across.
Unless you are able to build a comprehensive system of 100% segregated, elevated bikeways or if you completely ban all motorized vehicles from public roads. Both of those would be pretty awesome, IMO. 🙂
I taught my youngest daughter to ride vehicularly. She had no trouble at all. My mom had more trouble with the concept, but we only went out for one ride.
I think Mannytmoto’s comment is saying a massive wave of VC is not gonna happen regardless of any merits it may have. I would agree with that sentiment. VC has not proven to be a good recruiting tool to lure people to bicycles. We might differ on the “why,” but that’s the way things are.